I left willingly because I had personal issues with some people here. Now I'm hearing that Mordhak told holymeth that I was under suspicion of being a spy...please stop this bullshit...I wasn't a spy. I'd appreciate it if you would clear the air so I won't have to have that hanging over my reputation. Thank you for your time.

Sorry man, too much evidence against you.
I always liked you too. It's sad.

...Wow...this really makes no sense at all...Can I see the evidence please? I wasn't even aware that I was accused...If I was a spy why would I leave BEFORE all the important decisions were made? Seriously...I really want to figure all this out...I mean I put actual thought and opinions into the guild...of course I didn't agree with you guys. That was the reason I left. I don't get this "OMG spys" crap you all have going...first you kick capo out...then you accuse me AFTER I leave...not very honorable. Just another reason for me to stay away I guess...

Since I can't edit my posts anymore. I would like you guys to at least have the courtesy to publicly denounce me and list the evidence.

Sadly since I am falsely accused you will choose not to grant my wishes...at least I could have been informed of the matter. (Which is my biggest problem.) You all did the same thing to Capo not too long ago.

I would answer your questions, but I'll let the leaders do that. So you know you weren't the only suspect, Icespy.

What does your last sentence mean Kaso? Are you accusing me of something since I saw the media circus you made of Capo? It just baffles me that I wasn't informed...much more than the fact that I was even suspected...you might as well have suspected one of the leaders...Sadly this McCarthyism is just a by-product of relatively inexpirenced mmorpg players...the question that should be asked is: Why would anyone care enough to spy on anyone? That's something that's baffled me to this day about you guys...underneath it all you are good people...it's not the NSA/MI6...

I really can't say much but I can say that they *really* didn't denouce me, it was a ploy of war. That's all I can say.
Again, I'm sorry. I don't know who it was, but the evidence against you is compelling. Plus, the fact that you resigned made our lives easier dealing with this. I'm not sure about any of this anymore. In fact, I'm not even sure if I can trust any one in this guild anymore, other than Zelda and myself.
I really wish I knew all the answers, but I don't. I'll let the Admins fill you in.
Again, I'm sorry, Icespy.

That's a quick giggle Capo as well as being a steaming pile. Anyways, I would like a PUBLIC accusation instead of finding out through 2nd hand sourses. And the retraction of the fact that it was the "pressure of being accused" that caused me to resign. Blame whatever you want on me as you have "compelling" evidence...just don't do it behind my back...be more honorable than that please.

Beleive me or not, I'm not lying.
Good day, Icespy.

But I have "compelling" evidence you are.

See my point?

Accusing you of something? I was telling you that we all weren't plotting aginst you, there were other suspects. Another thing, they didn't tell any of us about the ploy because then it wouldn't be a very good ploy, would it?. You found out through "second-hand" sources because they never even mentioned you being suspected until after you left because after you left the last of the three suspected had been ruled out. Why would they feel the need to seek you out and tell you what was happening after you abandoned the guild? The fact of the matter is you are no longer a member of Brathair Prasgan and therefore you need not care what we think (it's not like you cared about other people's opinions while you were a member, anyway).

There is a big difference between respecting and accepting other's opinions. The point is...I don't want my reputation fucked up by rumors...I've had this name since I've started playing games online...wow...7-8 years ago... I had ideological differences with the guild, which was hard to discern due to the fact that nothing is posted about the guild where the public can see it. So basically, since I left you guys just gave up searching and assumed I cared enough to spy on you. I see how that works. Kaso...I disagreed with you, but the attack was always the idea, not the person. I hope you can discern between the two.

Kaso, Yes...the ruse isn't THAT hard to comprehend...no need to explain it. The "steaming pile" is that "I don't know if I trust anyone" garbage. I could have stayed on, but it was clear that my opinions did not mesh with the opinions of the guild. There's nothing more to it. I swear you guys need to stop worrying about "spies" and "economics" and let people know who you are...a public page...hell even a crappy flash intro like some guilds have.

You have your scapegoat...now publicly announce it.

We gave up searching because you were the last suspect left on the list, Icespy. Since more evidence was found on you than the other two (which shall remain nameless) we decided to accept you as the spy and move on.

I can discern between them just dandy, the problem is that you acted like a baby and left because we didn't always agree with you. Hell, I've been agreed with like 3 times since I joined this guild, yet I'm still here.

We worried about spies because of the Etruia-Nervii problem. We didn't want rumors to get into the wrong hands and cause more problems than already existed.

I just would like it put on the site or something...let me move on...I can show people yes....Brathair accused me of spying and not have to screw around with rumors...
What was the point of me staying on? I disagreed with nearly everything that was said...I don't have a sense of tribalism or nationalism holding me in...

Start your own guild if you want everyone to agree with you. Otherwise you're going to have to either deal with it or stay alone.

Could someone make a stickied topic in Clan Organization about this so we won't have to hear about it anymore?

I mean...would you work with a company that had business practices you disagreed with in a very fundamental way, when you would be just fine doing something else?

I would try and change the company for the better rather than abandoning it.

I admire you then Kaso...I just cannot decide if is for stubbornness (a very good trait to have by the way) or idealism.

Seriously, I wish you guys the best...I just don't want everything to be rumors about me.

I'll try and get a leader to release the real info on the public forum. Whether or not it will happen, I make no promises because I'm not sure if they want to release info about the mole yet.

Thank you, Kaso, that's all I've been asking.

I would also like to state that I'm sorry for having to make a public post, but I can't PM.

Icespy, about leaving the guild cause no one agreed with you, i can see that. It's frusterating having no one agree with you, and why would you stick around with a guild you are constantly fighting? I personally don't think you are a mole/spy or whatever, but there is some info that the leaders have.

First off, Icespy you are/were a major suspect for being the mole. While it is true that we offically cannot announce that you are/were the mole it has pretty much been accepted by the guild that you where.

The evidence behind this will be around shortly.

Edit- Changed where to were.

Being the gammar king (lol) and all, do you mean were and not where?

Edit Xeno- Do you mean Grammer Cpt. Wenis :innocent:

Here is part of a post done by me in the private forums just after you left (a day or two). As you know I had been looking for the mole, and for a while it may have seem that I had given up but in actual fact I was searching harder.

Here is the parts that concern you:

[QUOTE]As each and everyone one of you know, there was a mole in our guild. This mole was first discovered when Kaso noticed that Adam was viewing our private forums. This could only be if someone gave away the code to him... which means we have someone with two faces in our guild.

This came as a shock, but was not totally unexpected...especially since it was Adam who was spying on us. Though a mole is not a disastrous event for this type of game, it still had to be dealt with quickly. I took it upon myself to hunt down the culprit, knowing full well that the task at hand could possibly be unsolvable.

The first thing I did was write down each guild members IP address (since it must be a registered user who gave away the password). Next I went and looked at all the posts (or at least most of the posts) done by the members of the guild. From this I compiled a list of the suspects to spend extra time looking into.

Next I talked with most of the members of this guild and asked questions that would help show me that members... for lack of a better word, heart.

When talking to Capo about these not matching we (well him mostly) came up with the idea for him to be the 'mole'. Yes thats right, Capo is not the actual mole. The idea was that I would publically decree that Capo was the mole and he would fight against it and I would 'ban' him from the guild and forums. When the 'fight' took place he was going alittle over board so I actually did end up banning him from the forums.

Anyways, the purpose of his faked defection would be to lure out the real mole. The mole, since we have gotten rid of the problem would no longer have to be on guard and suspicous and would, hopefully, grow careless and leave something I could find. Another reason was that Capo could join other guilds and find out if they sent a mole into our guild or what they knew of the mole. One last reason, and (in my mind) the greatest reason was that Capo would be the scapegoat. I have personally seen what happens to a guild when suspicion of each other takes hold. It, among other things, effectively destroyed Legio Leonis. This way the guild could look to other things and let its temper cool while I activitly search for the real culprit.

The first week of Capos defection was yielded no results in finding the mole. I was surprised, and pleased to see that a number of guild members not only stuck up for Capo but also saw, at least somewhat through the farce. This showed me that our guild is not just a rag tag group of people that is loosly connected.

The next weeks where much more promising. I managed, with the help of Capo, to widdle down the suspect list to just three people, one of which was Icespy.

As many of you have read, I said that his passing was a relief to me, and that is not just because he was the prime suspect.

Through my investigation Icespy had shown, at times, suspicous activities. I will list each below:

- He showed up and started posting again, after a long time of not, when Capo 'defected'.
- His posts became increasingly argumentative and it seemed at times that he argued with whatever I said.
- His low post count (yes I pulling out everything about him) showed that, despite showing up at the same time as Cpt. Wenis and a few others he only posted about 1/4 of what they did. That in it self is not suspicous as I know some don't have much to say right now, but it adds to rest of his activities.
- His name, Icespy which sounds alot like I-Spy. I know when I was in other guilds in my younger years, I would take up names such as that. A way of 'sticking out your tongue' at the guild... a childish thing, but one I have found is quite popular ever where I went.
- His posts in general. They always seemed to lack... substance, in that I mean he never provided any posts (in my memory) that truelly effected the guild such as thinking up an economic system, battle field tatics, etc. This made me more suspicous of him because well thought up posts require energy, which, for one who isn't going to be around to experiance these changes, it is bacially wasted.
- And finally his final post which I will translate how I read it.

Orginal- [QUOTE]I'm outta here...seems that people are more interested in picking apart sentences instead of listening to the ideas expressed.

[QUOTE]I want to like you guys, but you seem too quick to relate mmo's with real life. I understand that Roma Victor is trying to be "real," however there is no way for it to become so.

The very notion of a standing army is not only ahistorical, but just doesn't work in an mmo situation, as does centralized government (What if the financial person isn't on?)

I orginally saw the whole "brotherhood" as a place of mutal respect, now it just seems that it will be another generic mmo guild. As well as being the resident scapegoat, I've noticed the general culture of the guild itself change too much.

Have a nice day and thank you for your time.[/QUOTE]


Sentence by Sentence, how I translated it- [QUOTE]I'm outta here...seems that people are more interested in picking apart sentences instead of listening to the ideas expressed.[/QUOTE]

Since he picked apart his fare share of sentences I figure that he used this a false excuse, weither he is a mole or not. It is also very convient to the time EeSang left... which made me think, the person who heads my list for being the mole just left, when he saw that one of our true members resigned without backlash. Now he can leave knowing that he will not be hunted for it.

[QUOTE]I want to like you guys, but you seem too quick to relate mmo's with real life.[/QUOTE]

Basically he said that he dosen't like us because we relate an online massive multiplayer with real life... What I want to know is why he going to play Roma Victor if not to role play the parts? This is a game that, from what I know, is the closest thing to real life besides maybe the sims. If he wants a hack and slash type of game why choose Roma Victor whoms graphics are... to be blunt weak when compared to say Everquest.

[QUOTE] I understand that Roma Victor is trying to be "real," however there is no way for it to become so. [/QUOTE]

Right, no way for a game, that strives foremost for realism, to become "real". Which brings to mind... just what is Real? I can't help but remember Morpheous asking the same thing to Neo in the Matrix.


[QUOTE] The very notion of a standing army is not only ahistorical, but just doesn't work in an mmo situation, as does centralized government (What if the financial person isn't on?)[/QUOTE]

??? I have to wonder where he gets his facts from. Is he suggesting the roman legion was a myth? What about the Pretorians, where they just conscripted civilians? As for centralized government...with some type of government there would not be a guild. Even if we all logged on as equals, not paying taxes and just basically doing our own thing, that still is a form of government. As for the Governor and such not being on... I dought that the guild will collaspe just because I wasen't on when the taxes needed to be collected or when a problem arises. Besides how long does it take any government now a days to deal with a problem? I dought the guild will encounter many, if any problems that require a decision that instant, that a member himself can't solve.


[QUOTE]I orginally saw the whole "brotherhood" as a place of mutal respect, now it just seems that it will be another generic mmo guild.[/QUOTE]

We are who we are, you could have tried and changed the look of the guild if you disagreed with it, but you did not. In fact you never complained about the look of the guild. Another generic mmo guild, eh? Everyones unquiqe and thus so is every guild. If you mean that our ideals are aligned with that of other guilds, then so be it. We have choosen the ideals of which represents the whole guild as a whole. If someone disagrees with this look then they can debate it.

[QUOTE]As well as being the resident scapegoat, I've noticed the general culture of the guild itself change too much.[/QUOTE]

Really? I have noticed the exact oppisite since before you arrived. What I see now is the ideals of the guild turning into stone. While some things change the core has remained the same: A group of dedicated people who wish to play with like minded individuals and experiance the game to its fullist. While we sometimes have our disagreements we stick together through mutual respect and camaraderie. I, for one, wanted to join a guild and help to better improve it any way I can. While I admit that I want some recognition for the effort I put into it, I find it most rewarding when I can look back and compare the difference and the improvent ,y actions have created.

[QUOTE]Have a nice day and thank you for your time.[/QUOTE]

A nice, formal end to his speech, one that looks similar to my resume.

With that I am done. I no longer seek out the mole and consider the case closed. I know that some of you will still wonder if this post is a hoax to hide further attempts at finding the mole, such is the price I was willing to pay when Capo defected. [/QUOTE]

There you go, though being edited a bit it still retains almost all of what I had posted. The parts that where edited are for Brathair Prasgan members only and since you left you do not get to see (besides they did not directly involve you).

I would like to note that while I believe you are the mole that indeed dosen't mean I am right. As you can see above I have no concrete evidence to nail you to the wall, but seeing that you are gone anyways it is irrelevant.

Its too bad we had to part ways like this, but such is life.

Try and not flame or spam these forums or I will be forced to ban you. As such you can remain a guest for whats its worth.

---Xenophon---

Still disappointed about the lack of an offical accusation...I've had this name for a long time...so that's pretty much bunk...one of the "classes" for a mmorpg I used to play was a "spy" Should have stayed with Icemonk...but I kept Icespy...(Neocron for anyone who cares)

You are right I was increasingly argumentive.
You are right I had less posts. (Although some of that was I didn't frequent the "spam" topics)
I attempted to post economic systems that were not your basic "communist/capitalist/socialist" systems. I don't see how that is a lack of thought. It is simply impossible to workout a full economic treastie if you do not know what the economy is.
Battlefield tactics...isn't something I'm too interested in...just like some members weren't interested in economics...
I should have phrased that last message better as "modern" life into a roman game. They had no concept of communism as a formal system etc. That failing is mine.

I would like to state that I never have and never will spy on people although I don't understand who I was supposedly giving this information to...because I would like to know so I CAN tell him/her/it.

P.S. Please ban me. And Condemn me. You are so sure...just do it. If not...retract it. And please stop the rumor that I knew I was being looked at as "the mole" this is simply not true. It is NOT irrelevant...I will still play the game and I will keep this name...I would not like to have to put up with rumors and instead would like to have something to point to.

My basic framework economic system:

1. When someone produces something, it is theirs to keep and sell as they need to.

2. You are not the romans, the Germanic tribes did not have huge standing armies.

3. There is a voluntary donation that is made to the guild's "coffers" whenever the member feels necessary.

4. There are no compulsive taxes of any kind.

5. The guild members are encouraged to help each other as this helps foster a "brotherhood" type bond.

6. The members of the guild are all equal except for of course the two leaders who control the access to the guild "bank."

It's simple because the system itself is simple...there are no complexities. KISS basically. There's no need for a person to "tax" or perform those other duties. I'm sorry that it wasn't full of "substance" with complicated schemes.

The only thing that people attacked was how no one would "pay fair." If you don't encourage helping fellow guildmates, I don't understand where "brotherhood" is from. It creates an atmosphere of suspicion that "XXXX is hiding XXXX gold coins." And leads to inquisition type witch hunts.



Another note: The reason why I am not letting this go is because it is an assault on my personal honor. It was never my intention to slip away. I just realized that I wasn't getting along and thought it would be best to leave. If someone wanted to spy they would actually do a decent job at going along with the popular concensus.

I see Icespy. I will not lie to the other guilds on your behalf nor will I embelish what has happened either. I will tell the other guild leaders, those who ask, that you resigned and where suspected of being a mole. But, there was not concrete evidence to support this.

You said I should either ban you are reinstate you. I will do neither. I do not ban unless I must, and I will not reinstate you for two reasons 1. You resigned. 2. I don't trust you.

Glad to see you have kept this civil Icespy, I'm sure you will find a new guild soon.

Thank you Xeno. Although it wasn't exactly what I wanted, I commend you for putting up the information you did. I would also like to remark that I am pleased to hear that you will only release it to guildleaders who ask. It was just very shocking when I saw holymeth saying I was a mole when I knew nothing of the subject. It was my initial shock of this threw me off balance.

As for not trusting me, I have one response. It is perfectly fair and within your right, as I had and still do not trust you.

Can I delete my account if you won't?

I will tell mordhak to read this and ask that he too reveal it to only those who ask.

As for deleting your account, no need. Besides it would be better if it remained since some of the active topics still have your posts in them.

If your looking for a new guild I would try Tuatha.

I won't be Barbarian...I don't want conflict of you not being able to properly form alliances because you don't trust me.

The invisionfree boards convert a users posts into a bunch of "guest" posts when deleted. I mainly wish for my email to be stricken from the records.

That will not be a problem, goodbye Icespy.