http://www.huffingtonpost.com/off-the-bus-...er_b_93463.html <_<

Whoa. I didn't see that one coming. He seems really bitter towards the party.

Whoa. Kinda shocking, that.

So now we're going to have both Nader and Gravel pulling voters away. So many people are disgruntled with how the Dems. have been handling themselves that I worry that many people will seek an alternative. I've already heard some dyed-in-the-wool Dems. saying they'd vote for McCain over Hillary or Obama. So now they've got another choice . . . <_<

Mike Who? :P

(climbing on soapbox) Excuse me for pointing out the circumstances of the real world. We don't always get what we want. We don't always win. When that happens I don't think it's a sign of character for someone to take their marbles home and start their own little game. Have Americans become so narcissistic in the "Me Generation" that they don't understand how society only works if we pull together? It's called collective action. That's how groups of people work. If my children acted like Mike Gravel I would tell them to buck up and learn to play well with others.

Well, speaking as a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat who isn't happy with the two choices remaining, I will:

1. Vote for Clinton if she gets the nomination.

but I

2. Will not vote for Obama, much as it pains me to come to this point, if he gets the nomination.

HOWEVER: I will

3. Also NOT vote for McCain, Gravel or, God forbid, Nader.

That reminds me, I need to call my Supervisor of Elections ASAP to ascertain if Florida allows write-ins in the general election now. It may have changed since the last go around. If so, I know who I'm writing in.

...There is a chance I could come around before the election, if #2 scenario plays out, but at this point, I doubt it. Still, I've never not voted before and my dyed-in-the-woolness just may get the best of me, despite myself...but at the moment, I do not see it happening. Off to call the Sup. of Elections...

Personally, I will vote for the Democratic nominee. When you compare the policy differences between Senators Obama and Clinton you have to conclude they are very similar.

Emotions are running high, and hangingchad, you have, for some reason, expressed some mean-spirited attacks on Senator Obama. I hope and expect that most Democrats will grasp the bigger picture, follow the advice of Al Gore at the convention, and come out united in November to win by a historic margin.

:Y: :spikey: :good:

Amen to that, Wayne.

Btw, I'm sitting (gently) on H-chad in e-mails off-board to get her to see that we need a Dem. in the White House, regardless of which candidate it is.

Well, Wayne, I was with your post until you threw in the "mean-spirited attacks" part. Out of all the people on this forum whom you could accuse of mean-spirited attacks, you pick me? That hurts, coming from you, whom I respect a lot, and I take issue with it. I have only outlined (granted, sometimes in a passionate way) all the things I don't like about Obama when others have attacked me and demanded to know why I don't like Obama, and/or assumed that I am some huge Hillary supporter (I'm not) and demanded to know why I'm for her, so I laid it out on the table why I don't like him, baby. This primary season has become extremely divisive and polarizing and there are some on both "sides" who are quick to make assumptions about anyone posting an opinion on anything, for example seating the FL & MI delegates, such as that one could only hold that opinion if one is a rabid Clinton supporter who just wants delegates for their candidate. When, in my case, nothing could be further from the truth. Yet no matter what issue you talk about, people make assumptions and try to frame it in terms of which candidate they THINK you are "for". No matter which candidate won Florida, I'd be screaming for the delegates to be seated just as loudly, even though I personally am not at all enamoured of Obama, I don't trust the man, and I don't see what all the fervor is about surrounding him. It reminds me of all the fervor around Ronald Reagan (not that Obama and Reagan are similar on policy/ideals, because they aren't). Didn't get it then, don't get it now. Everyone thought Reagan was this brilliant orator and I thought he was a bellicose simpleton. Everyone thinks Obama is this brilliant orator and idealist and I (who, by the way, am a TOTAL idealist) think he is an okay speaker who says whatever people want to hear to get him further along with his political ambition. Sorry, but that's what I think. Yet had he won the FL primary? I'd be chaining myself to the podium in Denver to get the delegates seated because it is about representing the VOTERS.

All that said, Earth has been working on me behind the scenes in her reasonable, factual, respectful way, and she has made a very good point, re voting in the general. I had previously thought of this but pushed it out of the way because I didn't WANT to think of it: the war. Even if you could argue that shrub has ruined our country so profoundly that how much worse could four more years make it, you can't really argue that we can morally stand four more years of this war. Four more years of 18 and 19-year-olds being sent to their deaths for Halliburton.

Therefore, the more I think about that, the more I realize that...*gulp*...I will probably come around in the end, however grudgingly, general-election-voting-wise. No matter how surprisingly good McCain is on global climate change, and no matter how screwed up/Republicanized our economy already is so that four more years won't matter there, I can't sit by while someone who thinks 100 more years in Iraq is perfectly fine gets into office while I just did what I look down on Obama for doing: voting "present". No, I have to vote AGAINST the war continuing. *sigh*

But that doesn't mean I want Obama to be the nominee. I would have rather had ANYONE else (except Gravel) from the original field. And, Wayne, not liking a particular candidate doesn't equate to being "mean-spirited" towards him or her. Again, when people fly at me like bats outta hell, demanding to know why I am for Clinton over Obama or whatever, I'm going to tell them, sometimes in passionate detail, as this is a passionate political season (understatement! And multiply that passion exponentially for those of us in FL & MI right now! We are infuriated and frustrated and, if we get attacked right about now, we fight back).

Emotions have run high in all of us and I'm not saying I've been perfectly measured and Al-Gore-like in my responses to people, that is for sure. And I've recently said that we ALL (myself included) need to work harder than usual to stay respectful, substantive and civil with each other. It makes it much harder when you feel you are being attacked, but even then it is no excuse.

Anyway...now that Earth has worked her voo-doo magic on me, I can tell I'll probably come around (she had to mention the d*mn war!). But I do NOT trust Obama or like him or see what the all-fired cult-like worship is about. And, sadly, I fear that, in the end, you will all see what I'm talking about versus the other way around. Whether it is months from now or several years down the road, remember the concerns I've expressed in 2008. I hope I'm the one proven wrong.

Yeah, and you don't play fair, Earth, confusing me with the facts and all. :wub:

WHY do you have to bring up the WAR for oil? D*mn it!

*sigh* ...What time does the polling place open? 7:30 it is.

Hangingchad, I'm on the other side of the fence from you, I don't like Clinton. But I will vote for her in the General if it comes down to that.

I don't trust her on the war but I do hope she would help remedy the imbalance of the Supreme Court. Plus, in theory, a Democratic president wouldn't sit there with the threat of the veto pen trying to tell congress to craft legislation his/her way or the highway.

I'm working on someone right now who says they will just not vote if the choice is between McCain and Clinton. They won't vote for McCain for sure but didn't want to see Clinton get the nod from the get go. It's a slow slog......

Not me.

I won't ever vote for Hillary or Bill or for that matter any Clintonite

They are not democrats, therefore i will have a clear conscious not voting for them.

They are the Bush family.
Hillary will lead to Jeb.

Sorry, but I would rather trust McCain to not lead to Jeb, then Hillary.
History shows Bill led to W. Hillary will lead to Jeb.
Jeb is worse than W.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

But luckily we will never have to deal with Hillary. It won't be her.
So we are lucky.

Now Yickees is saying hillary can lose the popular vote, delegates, super delegates Florida,Michigan, and all the states
Long as Hillary got one vote, Yickees says Hillary won.

:wtf: is wrong with Clintonites?

Toss them all out, charge them with war crimes. Enablers they are.

Why do I like Obama?
Because Hillary is trying so hard to make sure he is damaged forever.

That makes him different from them.

That means the cabal is scared of him.
Which means he will as stated, roll back the bad parts of the last 8 years (he even said so the last few days).

Hillary will do nothing like that. She will sweep it all under the rug with her friend and possible VP, Joe Lieberman.