http://dailykos.com/story/2005/7/6/123057/9647

*sigh*

If we are going to take seats in 06, the beltway dems need to stop playing repug-lite and grow some f*ckin balls already.

:clap:

Where is Wellstone when we need him? No more of this go along to get along mentality. At least there is Dean making some noise and Reid has done a good job as minority leader.

It still amazes me how people who have never put themselves out there to run for political office are so condescending about the performance of those who have. It's easy to sit on an internet message board or blog and anonymously attack elected and party officials who are just human being trying to get through the day. It's unfair to expect anyone to show any backbone when no one has their back. No Dem is going to stick their neck out when the grassroots walk away because they didn't stick it out enough. So the more you trash Dems, the more you're all helping the GOP.

"Remember, if you're attacking Democrats, you're a Republican." - Randi Rhodes.

First of all, I intend to run for office some day, but that's irrelevant. The point is, the folks we send into office are supposed to represent us. Their job is not to try to be popular and gain approval points with moderates. I understand it's a rough job, but I'm sick of this party showing no unity in fighting republicans; many of these beltway dems would rather be stay lowkey and be safe with their seat, than working together for a coup that would benefit the whole party. They're acting like Congress is one big country club.

You just described Howard Dean's situation. How do you think he feels, everytime he tries a movement to help our party, and the dems we elect shun it? Our elected members' backs are not left bare by the people, but the people's voice is left out by our elected members. It's time for them to start fighting. Our recipe of pandering to the Fox News crowd has gotten us nowhere in the past 11 years.

There is nothing wrong with reminding the folks we elect that there is work to be done.

As I said it's easier to snipe in anonimity from the internet than do anything constructive. You've just repeated every canard of those who know nothing of the situation and rather snipe at the Dems because it furthers their own private agendas.

Were the Senators who engaged in the judicial filabusters pandering to the FOX News crowd? Were Rep. Conyers and the other Dems who delievered the petition on the Downing Street memo to the White House acting like Republican-lites? Were Reps. Nadler & Jackson-Lee acting like Congress was one big country club when the Patriot Act hearing were illegally shut down?

Our elected officials are doing what they can and would do more if only they knew we had their backs. Bad enough they have a corporate-right leaning media to contend with. If you want unity, then show some and stop attacking your fellow Dems. Otherwise you're just a loudmouth internet hypocrite.

I'm sure many here signed the Downing Street petition but how many called their local Dems representative to thank them for supporting it. How many wrote their local newspapers to complain about the lack of coverage of it as well as the shut down of the House Judiciary Committee. Did anyone call the offices of the Dems on that committee to thank them for their courage or let them know you supported them? I did. How many here can claim the same, not many. Like any person, you can't just complain and attack when they do something you don't like. You have to give positive reinforcement when they do good too.

I disagree with you on this, James. I don't think it's fair to blame us (the average citizen) for what's going on on Capitol Hill. We did elect these people to represent us, and I think, to a large extent, they have failed us. The two examples you gave (the judicial filibuster and Downing St. memo) are very recent and happened under Reid's watch, and I think Reid has been much more effective than Daschle was. And while I agree with you that, of course, it's good for us to write to newspapers, call our representatives, etc., since when is that required for our elected officials to do their jobs? I do my job, and I'm sure you do yours, on a daily basis without anyone patting me on the back or making a public issue over it.

No one said the job our senators and congresspeople have is easy. But the Republican members of the House and Senate don't seem to need letters to the editor or calls to their offices for them to take action. Why do the Democrats?

Also well taken is your point about too many people sitting on their duffs posting on message boards rather than getting involved. But you're aiming your darts in the wrong direction, IMO. Many of us here, and I happen to know that that includes greyfox, have been involved off this board in real ways, in the real world. If you want to talk about attacking our own, I think your response to every person who has a criticism of our party is more divisive than the criticisms themselves.

It is the duty of every citizen to be involved. I know some just like to vote and then just complain when their elected officials don't perform up to their expectations.

You mention Tom Daschle. He's an example of exactly what I'm talking about. He was demonized by the right wing on talk radio & FAUX for months in 2002 & 2003 for being an obstuctionist to Bush's policies. They coined the term 'Daschle Democrats' as a pejorative. He even started getting death threats as his home.
Yet did those on the left rush to his support? No. They sniped at and attacked Daschle for not standing up to Bush more than he did. The poor guy was left twisting in the wind by those in his own party.

People talk of showing unity but what they really want is unity on their terms. That's not unity.

Elected Officials don't have ESP. We have to let them know when they do good as well as bad. We are their bosses. If I had a boss who only critized me when I made a mistake and never praised me or gave me proper credit for doing a good job; I wouldn't bend over backwards for that boss.

As I've said before, 'If you're attacking Dems, then you're a Republican' because all you are doing is helping the GOP. Yet it seems there are more here who would rather attack their fellow Dems than the Republicans. That's the real reason why the right has been so successful over the last 20 years. They don't feed on their own. They stick together even when they don't completely agree. Dems on the other hand circle the wagons and shoot inwards.

It is the duty of every citizen to be involved. I know some just like to vote and then just complain when their elected officials don't perform up to their expectations.

You mention Tom Daschle. He's an example of exactly what I'm talking about. He was demonized by the right wing on talk radio & FAUX for months in 2002 & 2003 for being an obstuctionist to Bush's policies. They coined the term 'Daschle Democrats' as a pejorative. He even started getting death threats as his home.
Yet did those on the left rush to his support? No. They sniped at and attacked Daschle for not standing up to Bush more than he did. The poor guy was left twisting in the wind by those in his own party.

People talk of showing unity but what they really want is unity on their terms. That's not unity.

Elected Officials don't have ESP. We have to let them know when they do good as well as bad. We are their bosses. If I had a boss who only critized me when I made a mistake and never praised me or gave me proper credit for doing a good job; I wouldn't bend over backwards for that boss.

As I've said before, 'If you're attacking Dems, then you're a Republican' because all you are doing is helping the GOP. Yet it seems there are more here who would rather attack their fellow Dems than the Republicans. That's the real reason why the right has been so successful over the last 20 years. They don't feed on their own. They stick together even when they don't completely agree. Dems on the other hand circle the wagons and shoot inwards.

I agree with most of what you said above, but with one important exception: I think that it is when we stand mute in the face of actions we don't like by our leaders that we give more power to our enemies. The Democratic party is currently all over the map. We've had discussions about this before. Because we're not united by simplistic, over-generalized ideas like the Republican party is, we're having trouble expressing ourselves with one voice. I understand your point about that making us appear weaker. But I don't think we can expect people to lend their support to a voice that isn't their own. Should we really be squashing dissent within our own ranks? As a good example, most of us think it was wrong for the Senate to give Bush permission to go to war in Iraq. As a result, many of us questioned the behavior of the Dem. senators who voted for the Iraq resolution. Should we not have done that? Even Al Gore, without naming names, says it was wrong. So maybe your point is that we shouldn't attack the individuals, just the ideas? Help me out here. I can't believe it would be a good thing for us to not voice our disapproval of actions or inactions by our representatives.

I have no problem with honest critizism. What I have problems with are attacks and name calling which is mostly done by only looking at part but not the whole record. I.E. Quoting Biden out of context to trash him as cheerleading for Bush when if you read his whole speech that's not what he was doing. Or saying that Dems are acting like Congress is a country club when, if you pay attention to what's happening there, that's not true. Even saying that the Senate voted to go to war in Iraq is not the truth. No Senator, Dem or GOP, voted to go to war. Rather they voted to give Bush the authority to use military action to enforce the UN resolutions.

I hope you're not quoting me on this one. In my post, I specifically said the Iraq resolution (which gave Bush permission to go to war after all other avenues had been exhausted--which, of course, they weren't). I didn't say they voted to go to war in Iraq, but since even I knew that's how it would end up, I don't understand why they didn't. But that's another story . . .

As for the Biden quote, yes, I think it was quoted out of context. But I also think Biden pandered on that one. He said Bush honestly wants to do what's right in Iraq, that he'd be willing to change his course (to the Dem. way of thinking?) if he could be convinced that it was the right thing to do. He made it sound as if Bush is trying to do the best thing for our country in Iraq. I don't happen to buy that. No, I don't think Bush is trying to purposely kill our troops or keep us in Iraq longer than we need to be there. But I do think he's guilty on many counts, and I think Biden played that down. Biden made Bush sound entirely too honorable, IMO. Maybe that's because he's a politician and he's trying to work with Bush to get results, and we all know it's hard to get the results you want out of someone when you're attacking them. But I would have been surprised to hear the words Biden spoke coming out of Al Gore's mouth. I don't think he would have been quite so generous.

It's not that. It's the fact that the democrat party is dying because of a serious lack of discipline and unity. The people want the unity, Howard Dean wants the unity, but it seems as though our elected officials don't.

I haven't seen this happen to the republicans any more than it has to the democrats. Certain democrats get praise just like certain republicans.

Have you heard how republicans talk about Hagel and McCain?

Exactly! Howard Dean is trying to bring the party together, but the beltway dems who hate him because he's an outsider would rather play "my dick is bigger than yours" politics. I'm not a democrat. I support them however 100% because my party has no chance of winning elections. It's hard to do so when not even our elected officials will unite.

I was refering to the generic canard about Senate Dems.

The point was that Biden was quoted out of context to mischaracterize what he said as cheerleading for Bush. You may think he wasn't strong enough in his critizisms but he wasn't cheerleading.

If Gore was still in the Senate, who know? Gore isn't in the Senate so that gives him a certain freedom.

Biden was being a statesman and perhaps he was being too conciliatory. But again he wasn't cheerleading. But also maybe the forum wasn't an appropriate one to launch an attack. The problem is too many start with "I hate Bush" and then work backwards to slam someone if their level of vitriol doesn't match their own level of hatred. Cherrypicking one statement, one action or even one vote is unfair. Many do this and ignore the full record. Now everyone has to pick their battles. In the case of Biden, he's been a constant critic of Bush and is one of the Senators responsible for stopping the confirmation of John Bolton.

I was hoping to keep Gov. Dean out of this but since you keep insisting on bringing him in can you tell me exactly what he's done to unify the party. The role of Party Chairman is to raise money and construct a strategy for the next election. To date, Gov. Dean hasn't consulted with state chairs or Congressional Dems on how to win the midterms and the GOP is out fundraising the Dems 2 to 1. So now here we are 18 months away from the midterms underfunded and with no strategy to win.

You're talking about 2 Republicans who are rebels within their own party, not congressional Republicans being trashed en masse.

You seem to think Gov. Dean can do no wrong and the Congressional Dems can do no right. Well this is the Democratic party not the Howard Dean party. Let's not fall in the right wing trap of the 'cult of personality'. Congressional Dems don't and shouldn't have to follow him in mindless lockstep.

And I ask again what actions Gov. Dean has done to unify the party? Did he speak out to support Senate Dems in the filabuster fight? Did he support Rep. Conyers on the Downing Street petition? Did he speak out against the illegal shutting down of the Patriot Act hearings? Has he spoken out against the nomination of John Bolton in support of the Senate Dems opposing it? I haven't heard him say a word. Of course I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he did and the corporate media didn't bother to report it.

James, why do a lot of your posts come out double these days? I assume everyone sees them that way, not just me. What's up with that?

But back to the subject at hand . . . well, there's not much to say. I agree with pretty much everything you said. :D

Double??? What are you talking about?

Well, I haven't been drinking (hick!), so I know that's not the problem. I don't know what's going on. As I scroll back through the posts now, they're normal. But when I get an e-mail alert of a new post from you, when I go to read it, there are two of the same post, one immediately following the other. This has happened at least five times in the last week or so. At first I thought maybe you were just having difficulty posting and were hitting the button twice or something, but I guess not. Well, no matter. It's obviously just some glitch that's peculiar to me.

Having a little rain today, huh? (glub glub)

Double??? What are you talking about? ;)

:wacko:

This topic is retarted

This topic is retarted

Don't feed the troll.

:bad:

retarded :good:

. . . Albeit terribly politically incorrect . . .