This is a quote from an AP article of today:

"Clinton started out with the goal of covering everyone. Obama has framed the problem in a different way: slowing the increase in costs, so that eventually everybody can be covered."

WTF? "Slow the increase in costs so that eventually everybody can be covered?" What is THAT? That is exactly NOTHING, zero and zip!

WE NEED UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE NOW!

Come on, Barack, you gotta deliver on this one!

Hi Chad - I think Obama is headed in that direction, but at the same time, I think he is also sensitive to what people can afford. It seems like these days we've got all kinds of insurances out the wazoo. How can everybody afford it all? I want everybody to have health insurance, but at the same time, I don't want it shoved down their throats if they can't afford it, ya know. Just something else for the insurance companies to profit from.

Given the complexity of the situation, I'm sure universal healthcare won't happen overnight, but as long as he is working toward that goal, just like green energy, I'm hopeful that we'll get there. :Y:

I don't know about you but

my 2008 plan costs ME MONTHLY(this is ONE MONTH EACH MONTH) $2750plus DOLLAR A MONTH

We got our increase recently and if we want the same coverage, it is going to
now $3100 a month.

YES, I would definitely like the stop the bleeding
That yearly amount now is 33000 a YEAR, the NEW one will be $37,000 plus a YEAR

BTW- we had this SAME insurance under Bill and it rose 15% a year then too
which is what it rises now. Bill did NOTHING to lower it then

If it just does what Obama wants, IT IS FAR BETTER THAN ANYTHING THE LAST 28 YEARS, so give me that.

How much do you pay Chad?

Totally agree and the sooner the better. Like, NOW.

Obama is working on fixing things, healthcare is just one of many things he needs to fix. I wish it could happen just like that overnight, but here in reality there's more to healthcare than just our President snapping fingers and saying "Let there be affordable healthcare for all!"

I myself only became covered last year when I got married, before that I couldn't go to the doctor even for a treatable infection. It's a shame that so many people are still in that position while the extremely wealthy can afford manicures and a new pair of shoes to match every piece of clothing they own.

Give Obama time, he has alot of work ahead of him. Dubya spent 8 years destroying what took this country over 200 years to build.

Health care costs are just sucking our economy dry more than any other one factor. I think the most important thing we could change to help business in this country is to go with universal single-payer health care. Frankly, I think doctors are overpaid, hospitals are overpaid, pharmacies are overpaid and medical insurance and HMO folks should be out of a job completely. The stranglehold that HMO's and Big Pharma have on our political system is going to be a huge challenge to free ourselves from. I would consider asking the Taiwanese, Germans, or Swiss, to come here and make recommendations to set up a new system for us.



:o

Wayne is right when pointing out the cost of healthcare. That is the most important factor to take into account. The cost is also high up here in Quebec even if it's free for everyone. But it's free for a one big reason. In the early 60's the government nationalized all the energy producers and created Hydro-Quebec which became one of the biggest producers of electricity in North America. The over 1 billion/year profits generated by hydro pays for the healthcare. You could say it's a good example of socialism. But socialism always comes with a high price tag. You need to be able to afford it.

Question for me is how can America afford healthcare for all when it's running a world empire, a monstrous deficit and being in a major recession ? There ain't gonna be easy solutions for this, the money has to come from somewhere.

Well, just my 2 cents.

Gore came out in favor of single payer healthcare in NYC in November 2002!

I was there!

It was a BIG deal?






Talk about fish out of water, imagine me on the front row of the East Manhattan YMCA!

They ALL wanted to know, who is that guy? :laugh:

:bow: :bow: :bow: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Amen, brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't need a "down payment towards reform", we need REFORM, as in, the real McCoy!!!! UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE!

It should be like police, fire, road repair: JUST THERE FOR EVERYONE, PAID VIA TAXES!

Recently there was a news story here about some municipalities starting to charge citizens for police and fire on a per-use basis. Everyone is up in arms about it (rightly) and the state is considering passing a law against municipalities doing this. As one mayor said huffily "Isn't that what we pay taxes for?!"

When I saw that news story, I felt like shouting: we should all feel the same way about healthcare!!! No one screams "socialism!" when our taxes go to pay for BASIC SERVICES, things that we all agree are obvious basic rights provided by, YES, GOVERNMENT! Our taxes!!!! We need some government services, that is why we have taxes, taxes are not "bad", they serve a purpose, a greater good! We all feel that education, police, fire, potholes, etc., obviously should be paid for by our tax dollars. If a city tries to charge for any of those to the individual, we are all rightly up in arms. Healthcare should be the same way!!!!! Yet mention universal healthcare paid for by taxes and everyone screams "socialism!"

What is wrong with this country? I don't know, but something. Something very massive and possibly intractable.

We'd better wake up and smell the rest of the world, babies, because they all know how to do healthcare better than we do. We need to snap out of our Reagan-induced trance for good!

!

President Obama had a heathcare summit today! He said NOW was the time to handle the issue because health costs are taking down this nation from overwhelming costs! :!:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090305/ap_on_...h_care_overhaul

Obama open to compromise on health care overhaul


AP – President Barack Obama delivers remarks to the White House Forum on Health Reform, Thursday, March 5, …

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama said the consensus from the White House health care summit is that there is an immediate need for health care reform, and signaled that he's open to compromise on Thursday.

Obama told participants at the end of a health summit that although he offered a plan during last year's campaign, he isn't wedded to that proposal. He told Republicans and Democrats, doctors and insurers — "I just want to figure out what works."

The president said there are some elements that all sides can agree on such as electronic health records that will save lives and money. Other issues — such as his $634 billion down payment for expanded coverage — are certain to create deep divisions.

He said: "We have to keep an open mind."

Obama invited more than 120 people who hold a wide range of views on how to fix the system.

Obama entered the room with Sen. Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts, who is battling a brain tumor. After brief remarks summarizing the participants' observations, Obama called on Kennedy. The veteran Democratic senator said he looked forward to being a foot soldier in the push for health care reform and said: "this time we will not fail."

Kennedy, who recently turned 77, is battling brain cancer and has been in Florida continuing his treatment and physical rehabilitation. He chairs the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee and was a strong Obama backer during the 2008 campaign.

Compromise, consensus and willingness to work together are all great, but on this issue the baseline MUST be truly universal coverage, and I don't hear Obama clearly articulating that or fighting for that. EVERYONE in this country should have full health insurance. Nothing less is acceptable. Agreement on that is where the discussion should begin. Then we can hammer out the specifics, but universal health coverage is the baseline, not a "downpayment towards reform", not making records electronic, not a willingness to endlessly discuss and water down, no: the time is now for this country to be like every other civilized, sane, sensible, moral nation on planet earth and provide universal full healthcare to each and every one of its citizens as a basic right.

I don't hear that being said from the White House.

Even the filthy rich fat cats with their 400-million-dollar bonuses and slimebush tax cuts that don't expire for 2 more years? They should either have to pay for their own health care or give up their beloved tax cuts (well, not all of them love their tax cuts, like Warren Buffet who has stated he should be paying way more in taxes than he is, and Bill Maher, who has also said it's ridiculous that he should enjoy tax cuts with the amount of money he makes)....(which is yet another reason I love the man).
It's the middle-class (what's left of them) that needs universal health care. The rich can afford their own and the poor get Medicaid. And the elderly get Medicare, although that's fading too.

hangingchad! ALERT! HUGE COINCIDENCE!

OMG It's like my beloved Bill Maher read your posts here at AGSC concerning this issue! He talked about exactly this as his final New Rule last night on his show--here's the link for just the New Rules segment--you must find a way to watch this, HC!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxf76wLGRI

But if there's no possible way you can, I've cherry-picked the highlights out of his approximately 4-minute rant (which of course I'll be adding to my BM notebook of his brilliant gems)--if this isn't proof he's a regular anonymous guest at this site I don't know what is! LOL!!

He started the final New Rule talking about Bobby Jindal's rebuttal to Obama's speech last week-- I left the first part out but here are the main points he so brilliantly made:

"Republicans must stop pitting the American people against the government. [snip]
....and he (Bobby Jindal) began his speech last week with the story that every immigrant tells about going to an American grocery store and being overwhelmed with the endless variety on the shelves.
The thing is, that endless variety only exists because Americans pay taxes to a government, which maintains roads, irrigates fields, oversees the electrical grid and everything else that enables the modern American supermarket to carry 47 varieties of frozen breakfast pastry.
Of course it's easy to tear government down. Ronald Reagan used to say the 9 most terrifying words in the English language were "I'm from the government and I'm here to help." (*snicker*) But that was before "I'm Sarah Palin. Now show me the launch codes." (HUGE applause)
The stimulus package was attacked as typical 'tax and spend'...you know, like repairing bridges is left-wing stuff: 'oooh there the liberals go again always wanting to get across the river!' (laughter)
Folks, the people ARE the government. The first responders who put out your fires--that's your government. The ranger who shoos pedophiles out of the park restrooms, the postman who delivers your porn...I mean, how stupid is it when people say "oh yeah, that's all we need--the federal government telling Detroit how to make cars or Wells Fargo how to run a bank. You want them to look like the post office?"
Yeah, actually..(huge applause)..you mean the place that takes a note in my hand in LA on Monday and gives it to my sister in New Jersey on Wednesday for 42 cents? Well, let me be the first to say I would be thrilled if America's healthcare system was anywhere near as functional as the post office. (HUGE applause)
Truth is, recent years have made me much more wary of government doing the opposite...of stepping aside and letting unregulated private enterprise run things it is plainly too greedy to trust with, like Wall Street, like rebuilding Iraq, like the way Republicans always frame the healthcare debate by saying "Healthcare decisions should be made by doctors and patients, not government bureaucrats"...leaving out the fact that health decisions aren't made by doctors, patients, or bureaucrats--they're made by insurance companies.
...Insurance companies, which are a lot like hospital gowns: chances are, your ass isn't covered."

:good: (((((Looooove my Bill!)))))

WE WOULD ALL BE TAXED FOR IT, IT WOULD BE TRULY UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE!!!

WHY DO AMERICANS (EVEN LIBERALS, EVEN GORISTAS) NOT SEEM TO GET THIS AND SAY THINGS LIKE OH, THE POOR WOULD BE FORCED...okay...excuse the all caps...it's been a bad day *lol*: starting fresh...

TfG or someone said, oh, but I don't want the poor peeps to be FORCED to pay for health care, and now you (imprison) are saying that the rich should have to pay.

GUYS: we should all contribute via taxes (which could be complex to set up in a fair way, but it is certainly doable). It (healthcare) would be A BASIC RIGHT LIKE CALLING 911 AND EXPECTING THE POLICE TO SHOW UP, like sending your kid to school and expecting a building there with teachers and books and stuff in it, like driving on a federal interstate and expecting the bridges to go from one side of terra firma to the other, basic, basic, basic!

Has nothing to do with, oh, but everyone would be FORCED to pay? Or, oh, the rich wouldn't have to pay? We would all contribute fairly as we theoretically do for all BASIC government services (and maybe it would be run privately or maybe a single-payer public thaaaang, but either way, the funding mechanism would be the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, a.k.a., you and me and our taxes, just as we pay for the aforementioned public schools, roads, first responders, etc. It's a basic right in a rich country such as ours, why do peeps not comprende vu that?

Oy vey to the enth!

(Don't mind the writing style today--but I'm just SAYIN'!)

OH MY GOSH, EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BILL MAHER GETS IT! HALLELU!

Witness:

"The thing is, that endless variety only exists because Americans pay taxes to a government, which maintains roads, irrigates fields, oversees the electrical grid and everything else that enables the modern American supermarket to carry 47 varieties of frozen breakfast pastry."

"Folks, the people ARE the government. The first responders who put out your fires--that's your government. The ranger who shoos pedophiles out of the park restrooms, the postman who delivers your porn...I mean, how stupid is it when people say "oh yeah, that's all we need--the federal government telling Detroit how to make cars or Wells Fargo how to run a bank. You want them to look like the post office?"
Yeah, actually..(huge applause)..you mean the place that takes a note in my hand in LA on Monday and gives it to my sister in New Jersey on Wednesday for 42 cents? Well, let me be the first to say I would be thrilled if America's healthcare system was anywhere near as functional as the post office. (HUGE applause)"


Now, if only he had a prayer of convincing the followers of Rush Limbaugh!

Chad, another reason I don't think people should be required/forced to have healthcare is that not everybody believes in modern medicine. Maybe that sounds like a "bad answer" but sometimes I don't think our healthcare system is all it's cracked up to be. Why should people be required to have healthcare and pay for it if they don't want it? If they want it, then yes, they should have a right to it, but I am not for mandatory healthcare. I am still for people having a right to decide if they want it or not.

I'm just sayin'. :Y:

Duuuuuuuuuuuuude, I totally have a rebuttal to that argument (and didn't you just know I would? :lol: ):

That reminds me of people saying:

1. I don't have children in public school, so why should I be forced to pay taxes for public education?

2. I'm not old, why do I have to subsidize Medicare?

3. I only walk and ride my bike everywhere and I am totally AGAINST federal interstates and any sort of federal road systems because I am all about GOING GREEN, baby, so why should I pay for the evil asphalting over of planet earth?

We all pay taxes that go to some things we don't use now and may never use. It is called a SOCIETY. I mean, the logical conclusion of the other side of the argument is that we should have no government at all and just have anarchy.

I'm personally not swayed by that Reagan logic on steroids. I say government is necessary for the big, basic things, such as HEALTHCARE! And I venture to say that some who "don't believe in modern medicine" might get religion real fast if their baby went into distress and needed to go to the hospital (although, granted, even then, some folks still refuse "modern medicine"). But even if, as I said, one never uses the healthcare system in one's life, tough toenails, you need to pay taxes and some of 'em (taxes) should go to fund universal healthcare for all, just as some go to fund public education for all, even though some have no children, and roads and bridges, even though some people choose to walk everywhere through the woods.

I'm just sayin'!

(I'm cantankerous lately...but you know I love ya, TfG!!! It's hard enough arguing with repugs, but I feel that my fellow Goristas should just fall in line with whatever **I** tell then to think! Yet y'all insist on being independent thinkers--maddening, that! :lol: )

P.S. TfG, if it helps, I think that "healthcare" should INCLUDE a lot of holistic, preventive, and/or alternative modalities that are currently not usually covered, such as naturopathic physicians, etc.

Healthcare!

(Personally, I am one who usually eschews the lot of it but about 50% of that eschewment is due to how intimidating and horrifying dealing with INSURANCE is. ...The other 50% is due to how my personal experience of "modern medicine", as you term it, is that they usually harm way more than they help: the cure is often worse than the disease, so I run far and run fast. But it should be available to ALL when needed. And yeah, you have to contribute and so does Rush Limbaugh and he needs to get over himself with his "massive redistribution of wealth", because that is what we HAD under 28 years of Reaganomics--all Obama is doing is attempting to right the ship a little, not even enough, but a little, so God bless his efforts. He had better do a bit more strenuous righting of the ship when it comes to healthcare, imho.)

:wub:

You make a fine argument, Chad. And I'm all for everyone paying their way, etc. But our society as we know it is broken. Like the examples you gave, we pay school taxes and look as the shape our schools are in. The school in my town yo-yo's back and forth from academically unacceptable to acceptable, that's why I send my kids to another school 20 miles away.

And then taxes for our streets and highway. There's another sore spot. Girrrl, you wouldn't even want to take a drive down one of the streets in my little town. They're all crappy as hell. You would be guaranteed to get your front end out of line before you left here. :blink:

And I'm not all that impressed by our healthcare system as it is. I say when it comes to all these things (schools, roads, healthcare) that our government needs to make some SERIOUS improvements here. I'm not too keen on them raking in all this money from the people and not have to provide decent service, to say the least.

Don't get me wrong. I sincerely do believe that everyone is entitled to healthcare insurance, but I'm just not keen on it becoming mandatory. It's like giving the healthcare system a free ticket to provide whatever kind of service they want to you without having to work for it because they know you're forced to pay for it, so why work for it, ya know?

Just like this blasted bailout which we've already discussed the madness in it - rather than forcing the banks to shape up, they've chosen to given them a handout.

And that's my concern about universal healthcare - I'm afraid it will become like everything else - that once they get that guaranteed payment from the people - that healthcare will not get better. It will get worse. And it's already got serious flaws.

Perhaps as part of the healthcare plan, there should be plenty of flexibility for people to go to whatever doctor they want, so that there would be more competition. That might improve things. And I agree with you that healthcare should also include holistic and other alternative medicines. That sounds like a plan. :Y:

I'm just sayin'. ;)

Ironically, I just rec'd this email from Moveon.org. I haven't had a chance to hear the ad yet, but this is an example of the concerns I have about the direction that healthcare should go. I don't want to see the HMO's controlling everything that will end up benefitting them and hurting us.


Dear MoveOn member,
Who's the single greatest obstacle to real health care reform?

The insurance companies. They're working to cut the heart out of President Obama's health care plan, and they've already got Republicans and Democrats coming on board.1

If progressives don't push back right now, health care reform could fail, just like it did in 1993. Or we could end up with "reform" that leaves the insurance companies in charge.

We've made a new TV ad that calls out the insurance industry for putting profits ahead of patient care, and supports the Public Health Insurance option that President Obama has proposed. If we can raise $100,000, we can run it nationally. The health care debate is heating up, and progressives need to join in. Can you chip in $25 to help? Click here:

The health insurance companies are fighting to cut the heart out of President Obama's plan for health care reform. Our new ad calls them out. Can you contribute $25 to put it on the air?


Click Here
Your message to Congress


Last week at President Obama's health care forum, our allies delivered over 300,000 of your signatures and comments to members of Congress who are key to passing health care for all this year.


http://pol.moveon.org/donate/ahip.html?id=...615-e2jE4Px&t=3

Health insurance companies will fight Obama's health care reform in public, but they'll also fight it behind closed doors in Congress. Check out this Washington Post headline:


Health Sector Has Donated Millions to Lawmakers

The Post reports: "The health-care sector has long ranked with financial services and energy interests as one of the most powerful political forces in Washington, and it spent nearly $1 billion on lobbying in the past two years alone."2


Some members of Congress are on the side of the health insurance companies. The only way we can stop them is to get out the truth about the insurance companies, so people understand that they're working against real health care reform.

This new TV ad does exactly that. Can you help get it on the air?


http://pol.moveon.org/donate/ahip.html?id=...615-e2jE4Px&t=4

Thanks for all you do.

–Noah, Ilyse, Peter, Tanya and the rest of the team

Sources:
1. "A Conversation with America's Health Insurance Plans," The American Prospect, November 20, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=51225&id=15724-8456615-e2jE4Px&t=5


2. "Health Sector Has Donated Millions to Lawmakers," Washington Post, March 8, 2009
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=51224&id=15724-8456615-e2jE4Px&t=6




Want to support our work? We're entirely funded by our 5 million members—no corporate contributions, no big checks from CEOs. And our tiny staff ensures that small contributions go a long way. Chip in here.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PAID FOR BY MOVEON.ORG POLITICAL ACTION, http://pol.moveon.org/. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

TfG, my love, I think you and I want the same things here and are actually muy simpatico.

I agree that the health care system is so BLEEPED up it isn't even describable in a single post. There are so many things that need changing, changing, CHANGING. And having universal care, you are right, won't fix all that is broken. But I think it is a starting place. Matter of fact, it won't even fix ANYTHING that is broken, other than--and this is a huge "other than"--making health care available to everyone, every American citizen, AND, I believe, it will also make the cost of healthcare much more affordable and sustainable to our society that way. We currently have a system that does not cover all and that costs way too much/is extremely inefficient. And again, I agree with you that that is just the tip of the iceberg of what needs changing. But it DOES need changing and need changing now. Let's get everyone covered and then work on fixing (or simulataneously work on fixing--no need to wait) all the other things wrong in American healthcare. Doing the former just may take care of some of the latter. Because it will loosen the grip of insurance companies and Big Pharma on the system...theoretically. BUT I share Moveon.org's concern: we progressives had better jump into the debate now and jump in vociferously if we want to get REAL reform because the big boys are already in there trying to water things down and get "reform" in name only, and that is precisely my fear and why I posted my original post.

Uh oh--boss alert. Gotta go. Lovely discussing the issue with you, TfG, as always!

:wub:

Yeah, I think we're pretty simpatico on this too. In fact, there's a lot of things that need major overhauling. If we can keep the HMO's from getting their way, then maybe universal healthcare would have a chance. :Y:

Gore announced he was for single payer back in 2002. He and Tipper were on a cable news talk show, forgot which one.

Have I ever mentioned that I LOVE Al Gore?

Well, I do.

I LOVE AL GORE!

Single-Payer is the only way that makes sense at this point. Cut out the for-profit insurance companies completely. Let's see if we do it. Even I'm skeptical with their lobbyists and influence; but it desperately needs to be done.

Agreed!

Hey Chad (if you get a chance to get online) - I thought you might find this letter interesting. It seems there may be something you and Howard Dean may be able to bond over after all (healthcare for all). ;) :Y:

First, I want to say thank you. The outpouring of support and excitement over my return to Democracy for America has been incredible. I am honored to work with you and the rest of the DFA community again.

Last night, I announced our biggest and perhaps most important campaign yet on an issue very close to my heart: Healthcare Reform.

We can guarantee healthcare for all if we give every American the freedom to choose between keeping their private insurance - if they have any - and a universally available public healthcare option like Medicare.

CLICK HERE TO ADD YOUR NAME

President Obama campaigned on a healthcare plan that included a public option, but for-profit insurance companies and HMO's are already working hard to strip it from any upcoming healthcare bill. They don't want Americans to have a choice and they will stop at nothing to kill real reform.

Today, we draw a line in the sand.

A public option is the only way to guarantee healthcare for all Americans and its inclusion is non-negotiable. Any legislation without the choice of a public option is only insurance reform and not the healthcare reform America needs.

This is just the start. We need your help to generate broad based support for a public option. We will need to canvass our neighborhoods, call our elected leaders, and arrange meetings with members of Congress in the coming months.

We need 250,000 signatures by the time this bill is introduced in Congress. As a start, can you help me get to 10,000 by the end of the day today?

ADD YOUR NAME RIGHT NOW

After you add your name, you can sign-up to volunteer or make a contribution. You can also spread the word to your friends, family, and co-workers. Send a personal email and include a link to the website, update your Facebook status to tell people about the campaign, write a blog post at a local or national blog about why you support this campaign - we need all hands on deck to win this fight.

This will be the largest, most ambitious campaign DFA has ever launched. But I need your help to make it happen. The more people in our movement for change, the more effective we will be.

Working together, we will get healthcare for all Americans. Thank you for everything you do to make it happen.

-Howard

Gov. Howard Dean, M.D.
Founder, Democracy for America

Do you have the link to the specific proposal, TfG?

I have come full circle, I think, back to being a total pinko commie (radcons would say so, anyway) on this issue: I think we need a single-payer, government-run, tax-funded, universal healthcare system that would be just like public school, first responders (911, police, fire), road and bridge repairs, etc.: it would just be there, fully-tax-funded, for EVERYONE, period. ...Kinda like every single other country on planet earth has.

Therefore, not sure I'm bonding with Howard on this because he mentioned that you could either keep your private insurance or opt for the public pool. Sounds expensive, possibly not truly universal, and not radical enough of a change for moi. I don't think either Obama or Dean goes far enough on healthcare in terms of starting from a position of that it absolutely has to be truly and completely universal, then we can nail down the specifics from there. I saw part of a Frontline episode on this and it was fascinating, so if you get a chance to see it, watch it. I think it was called something like "Sick in America" or something, I only saw the last few minutes, but WOW.

Universal, single-payer system or bust, them's my views...especially the universal part.

Because Americans are so prone to demagoguery on this issue. I suppose we 'could' let people keep their private health insurance if they really wanted to. BUT, they would have to pay taxes for government funded single-payer public health care just the same as people who don't have private insurance. It would be exactly like people who send their kids to fancy private schools; they have to pay property tax to fund public schools just the same.

:good: Well stated!!! And, as a friend of mine would say, I agree not 100% but 1,000%!

Chad, I'll have to go back and see if I can find that specific email with the link. I understand what you're saying. I believe everyone should have healthcare, but it should be quality healthcare. I don't like the idea of writing a blank check and not knowing what the people are going to be getting. As I mentioned the roads and schools already - that we pay for them - and they are not all quality. I, myself, don't send my kids to a private school, but rather another public school 20 miles away. You see, I attended the schools here, lived here al my life, and even back then, there were 30 students per teacher, whereas this smaller school, there are about 15 students per teacher. And then there's the performance rating here and the behavioral problems. It's humiliating that some other schools won't even play us at our own football stadium. The game has to be played at a bigger stadium, where there's more security. :unsure: So it's not a matter of sending kids to some "fancy" private school as Wayne mentioned. It's a matter of safety and quality learning. There's also been bomb threats in the past.

I've kinda gone off on a tangent here, but what I'm trying to say is we need QUALITY and AFFORDABLE healthcare for everyone, but the people should have a choice in the matter. They shouldn't have to pay for something if they aren't getting quality service, like in so many other areas, such as the examples we discussed. I think Obama is going in the right direction to insure this, hopefully. Look at the stronghold the oil industry had in the last 8 years, as a deterrence to going green. I don't want the HMO's having that same kind of influence in the decision-making when it comes to healthcare. :Y:

Howdy Amigos ;)

Well, sure I agree that health care needs to be quality and affordable. I've come to the conclusion the best way to do that is through a single-payer system. Al Gore himself came out in favor of a single-payer system I think around 6 or 7 years ago.

Seriously, what positive function do private insurance companies provide in our health care system? The goal of a for-profit insurance company is to make a profit; to maximize their profit. The way they do this is to charge premiums as high as possible, provide as little health care as they can get away with and to exclude from coverage the people who need it the most. What's good for them is bad for everyone else.

The public school system was an idea that's nearly as old as America itself. It needs improvement without a doubt, but I am very much against any tax money being given to parents that want to send their kids to private schools through so called "tuition vouchers". If an education is not a privilege for the wealthy but a basic right for all American kids then I think health care needs to be viewed in the same way. Public schools are affordable because they don't charge tuition to students and parents, we all pay for them through our taxes. And yes, people who don't have kids at all, and people who send their kids to private schools pay taxes to public schools just like the rest of us.

I generally do not favor the government run things that can be done by the private sector. This is not a philosophical or political argument. It's a practical necessity to stop our current system from crushing our economy. Part of the reason for example that Ford and GM are having a tough time competing against imports is that GM and Ford are stuck with our system where employers have to buy private health insurance for their workers. No other nation on earth burdens their businesses this way.

Our health care system needs major surgery. The price we pay for health care per person in the United States is by far higher than any other country on earth. Costs are rising much faster than the rate of inflation. We have something like 50 or 60 million people without health insurance and those numbers are rising. And what do we get for all that money? Is our life expectancy the highest and our infant mortality rates the lowest of any nation. NOT AT ALL! We now are way behind other developed nations in these measures of health of our citizens.

Trust me, there is NO WAY any other country on earth that has universal health care would want to give it up and follow the example of America. It's time we stop listening to the fear-mongering from HMO's and big insurance co's and pharmacies who are making a killing under the current system. For once in this nations history, we would do well to learn a better way of doing things from the French, Germans and Japanese.

:spikey: :spikey:

Hi Wayne.

I'm not for the private insurance companies. Most definitely not. I feel they have been ripping people off for a long time. Maybe it's just that I need to learn more about what is being proposed in terms of universal healthcare. Like the single-payer idea, what does that mean? I need to do my homework on that, but I agree, that we need to be more like the French, Germans and Japanese. They seem to have a healthcare system that works. I just hope that is the direction we're headed - and not something that is going to put more money in the pockets of the HMO's and less benefits for the people. And I don't want this to be something that is going to break the already struggling people in this Country. I want it to be a healthcare plan that truly is superb and does what it's supposed to do. :good: Forgive me if i appear a little distrustful of anything that is made "mandatory." It seems like once things are made mandatory, this those in charge don't have to be as concerned about the quality of healthcare that they provide.

See, that is where we disagree. I mean, of course I agree that the care should be not only affordable but quality care, but I think, frankly, that the quality of our health care system is a separate (yet related...but overall a seperate) issue from the universality (or lack thereof) of it. I think we need universal healthcare, PERIOD, and I do think payment for that system should be out of our taxes, and if that means a tax increase, so be it. We can and definitely should work on the quality of our health care in this country also, and on a million other things about our health care system (such as how it emphasizes allopathic medicine and pharmaceuticals and doesn't give enough credence to alternative medicine and nutrition, etc.). There is a lot to work on. But, imho, the FIRST thing is to make the system truly universal in this country. That is the starting point. It is obscene and ridiculous that we aren't there. Not to mention infuriating.

TAX ME!

Whoa! Best Post EVER Alert!

What Wayne said!!!!!!!

We are totally simpatico on this issue, my friend.

TfG: Could a single-payor system end up being the mother of all managed care, HMO bureaucratic NIGHTMARES? Sure it could. But that is what we already HAVE, only not everyone even has access to that level of care. All I'm saying is, start by giving EVERYONE access to the exact same, "free" (only not really because it would be paid for via taxes from EVERYONE, just like public school) health care. Start with universal coverage. Many positive changes will flow from that. And the positive changes we need that do not flow from that, we will have to work hard to effectuate. But meanwhile, at least everyone will have access to the health care system, flawed and effed up as it is and will surely remain for years to come...as Obama says about the economy, the war in Iraq, and other issues: "It is a big ship, t will take time to turn it around." But we start by covering everyone. PERIOD. Chad has spoken! :lol:

All right, what time does the bus leave for the March on Washington? I'm fired up, I ain't taking no mo'! I'm fired up, I ain't taking no mo'!!! What do we want? UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE! When do we want it? NOW! What do we want? UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE! When do we want it? NOW!

...There. I feel better. :lol: Have a beautiful weekend, y'all.

That Democrat In Name Only, Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana come out on Fox News against universal health care. Yeah, it's the Republican's 'socialist' argument he tosses out.

:mad: :dripple: :bad:

On FOX News Sunday with Chris Wallace, Convervakrat Evah Bayh joined hard-right fanatic Tom "Dr. No" Coburn and echoed his conservative principles and renewed his opposition to universal health care for America.

It's really sad that a man rumored to be a VP pick is using the tired right wing talking points that the government can't do anything effectively and he had the frakkin' nerve to bring in the Hannity-Beck line calling everything in sight "socialism" to describe Obama's fiscal beliefs. Is he seriously a member of the Democratic Party? He's against any form of nationalism of the banking industry and wins the coveted "C&L Propaganda Spoon" befitting a FOX Talker when he called universal health care socialized medicine.

more
http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/evan-...sal-health-care

Bayh is scum. He's either pissed that Obama didn't pick him for VP or he is setting himself up to run in 2012. Either way he is committing political suicide.

Probably a bit of both. Guess we're now seeing his true colors. So glad he didn't turn out to be our VP.

He's a traitor to the party. Going on FOX News to attack the President is like Jane Fonda going to Hanoi.